Von geküssten Madonnen und Papiergeruch, Schreibtischachsen und Karteileichen.

The article presents an interview by Phillip Müller with German historians Ludolf Kuchenbuch and Alf Lüdtke on the topic "The Stubbornness of History." Among the topics touched on in their joint discussion are the nature of material culture, the sense of the past, and the challenges involved in running a museum of material objects. Also touched on are such themes as the role of garbage and "dreck" in museum exhibitions, as well as the mechanical and electronic means of the manipulation of writing.